Thu Jun 27 10:22:18 1996 PDT
Logging is turned on by ben.
ben says, "OK it's on :)"
Kwon says, "it says permission denied."
Nshanyan says, "do I need to log-on"
ben says, "whatever we say is recorded for posterity so be sure to be brilliant." 
ben asks, "what does; the rename command?" 
Kwon says, "log on"
ben says, "don't worry about the log. I got it." 
Nshanyan asks, "what the hell are you guys doing?" 
ben laughs
Kwon l
Kwon exclaims, "I thought we sa all had to log on. sorry!" 
ben asks, "Kathy did you try to change your name again?" 
ben says, "never mind the log...."
Kwon says, "I won't do it now."
ben says, "Oh. ok."
ben asks, "Now then..... rhetoric..... what did you think of the email I sent?" 
Kwon asks, "now what?"
ben asks, "Or of the readings?"
Nshanyan says, "I'm confused .. do we have to log on to something before we do what we have to do?"" 
ben exclaims, "No no no! forget about the logging George!" 
Kwon exclaims, "It made"oh, G.!!"
Nshanyan says, "OK""
Kwon says, "G, I think we're frustrating B." 
ben is laughing his fool head off
Kwon laugh!
Nshanyan laugh
ben says, "now then, back to rhetoric :)" 
Kwon says, "the summary you emailed made it easy to understand." 
ben asks, "What is your opinion of the Gorgias view of rhetoric as 
an art of magical incantation? Does such a perspective have any relevance 
to modern rhetorical studies?" 
ben can hear a pin drop....
Kwon says, "I didn't uit quite understand what he meant by that. " 
Kwon asks, "Is he saying we create belief or th truth thru t rhetoric?" 
ben says, "well, let's start with a "believer's" notion of magic. 
An incantation invokes a god or demon." 
Kwon asks, "thus, good vs bad?"
Nshanyan says, "well"what is incantination" 
ben says, "for the ancient Greeks, who were pagans, there were gods all around. 
not good or bad, but powerful." 
ben says, "an incantation is when you say something over and over, invoking spirits 
or something. "Hail Eris" or whatever." 
Nshanyan asks, "is that how it was in ancient times?" 
Kwon asks, "so everyone has the power to make something become true?" 
Kwon asks, "if it's said often enouhg, pepople start believing it?" 
ben says, "Whether or not we agree with the anc. greek perception of the 
gods and goddesses, the point is that 
they saw naming as a magical act, that brings something into being." 
Thu Jun 27 10:32:24 1996 PDT
Kwon says, "I see."
Kwon asks, "did the name represent the same for everyone?" 
Nshanyan exclaims, "well then, not only does it have a place in modern rhetoric 
(Imena not only can it -- it does!" 
ben says, "Gorgias saw oratory in particular as a means of creating reality or 
realities.... a mystical state, kind of like a religious trance or a drug induced 
state." 
ben says, "yes :) Guess that was a leadin question :)" 
ben says, "not necessarily the same for everyone K." 
Kwon says, ":"
Kwon asks, "what was his stance on "truth?" 
Nshanyan says, "music has this quality- music is rhetoric!"" 
Kwon asks, "what?"
ben says, "Good question. for Gorgias truth was a product of rhetoric; 
it was always mediated through speech and action." 
Nshanyan Agrees.
Nshanyan says, "I'm a slow typer . .sooryry , I'm two sconversations behind 
by the time I finish a sentence" 
ben says, "yes - music was a key component of Gorgias' notion of rhetoric. 
Gorgias saw music as seductive, seducing the listener into a trance like state. 
Dancing and gyrating to the music was the expression of religious ecstasy." 
Kwon asks, "Plato disagrees. there is truth, right.?" 
ben says, "don't worry about it G. just go with the flow :)" 
Kwon says, "srorry. Gorgias thought truth existed too." 
ben says, "right. Plato saw Gorgias as a dangerous trickster. 
If you read Plato's _Gorgias_, which I'm sure you will :), 
you will see he has contempt for rhetoric." 
Nshanyan says, "but others do not deny truth do they?"" 
Kwon says, "they are both saying that we can arrive at truth." 
ben says, "yes, Gorgias thought truth existed but it was not an external 
objective reality but rather it is already social." 
Lyndon teleports in.
Kwon asks, "Plato saw it as an external objective reality. right?" 
ben says, "Noone really denies "truth." that is one of the myths of 
rhetoric/postmodern thought." 
Nshanyan says, "so what we have is universal truth vs. social construction of truth?""
Lyndon teleports out.
ben says, "yes, exactly. Whereas for Gorgias and the rhetoricians, 
truth was already a social product. Basically, yes." 
Nshanyan says, "Cool!""
ben smiles. "I told you other people would be bored. I think we scared Lyndon away." 
Kwon says, "so, Arisstotle "
Kwon )
Nshanyan asks, "so would we say by our standards (post-modern) that Gorgias was right?"
Kwon says, "anyway, Aristotle falls under the social constructionist view." 
ben says, "well, it's not so much a matter of who is right but rather of how much 
access we have to objective truth." 
Kwon asks, "what do you mean by access?" 
Nshanyan says, "ability to obtain?""
ben says, "for Aristotle speech had power to persuade, but there was still objective, 
external truth. Access meaning how we can relate to or "reach" truth. 
For the rhetoricians, we could relate to truth only through language 
and social reality." 
Thu Jun 27 10:42:56 1996 PDT
Kwon asks, "side question - is there any way I can undo after typing?" 
ben says, "The philosophers (plato/aristotle) saw danger in this view since it could 
allow people to manipulate and trick people into believing what is false or bad." 
ben asks, "what do you mean undo?"
Kwon says, "I'll be typing something and a question pops up. 
I want to delete what I was going to say and respond to your q." 
ben says, "oh.... only with a client."
Kwon says, "ok"
Nshanyan says, "a client?""
Kwon asks, "isn't it dangerous also to manipulate and trick people into believing 
what is good or bad?" 
ben says, "yes; a program that splits the screen into what you are typing and what 
other people are typing. There are clients available for different kinds of computers."
Nshanyan says, "ok..""
ben says, "Yes; that was why the philosophers despised rhetoric. Plato had harsh words
 for Gorgias, Isocrates, and Thrasymachus." 
Kwon asks, "who is Thrasymachus?"
Nshanyan asks, "a danger yes, not also an obligation though?" 
ben says, "He was a straw-man created by Plato. a bully who went around convincing 
people that what was false was true." 
Nshanyan says, "a plolititian?""
ben says, ":smiles..."Precisely!""
Kwon says, ":)"
Kwon says, "I have an ethical question here." 
Nshanyan says, "I have some general question ... unless there is more on this .." 
ben says, "Modern rhetoricians agree with Gorgias et al that truth is a social 
product, and investigate the ways in which that truth is produced. Not without 
respect for the "true" or the "good" however. yes, ask away..." 
Nshanyan says, "all this is a study of Western ways, is there nothing of Eastern 
philosophy or rhetoric specifically in this time period?"" 
Nshanyan says, "I would thing there should be stuff out of China"" 
ben says, "there is but not much that is known and discussed in western rhetoric 
texts. But the Chinese and Arabs had pretty sophisticated rhetorical traditions 
at this time that some are uncovering now." 
ben says, ""
Kwon asks, "Plato had a good argument. Rhetoric can be seen as a mind-game. 
Who wins at the end? the person who presents better or the person who has the 
better argument?" 
ben says, "well, according to the principles of rhetoric developed by Aristotle, 
both are necessary." 
Kwon asks, "Yeah but is it?"
ben says, "although aristotle and others clearly valued the argument higher." 
Kwon says, "let's take a look at mass media." 
ben says, "Aristotle named argumentation the "deliberative" rhetoric and presentation 
the "epideictic."" 
Nshanyan says, "I guess is not a case of one or the other, but how much of which"" 
Kwon says, "we are bombarded by lights, color, special effects, etc. that we're , 
I believe, losing the critical side of our brain." 
ben says, "yes - I think the modern mass media is an excellent case of where the 
epideictic has come to be more powerful than the deliberative." 
Thu Jun 27 10:53:21 1996 PDT
ben says, "(anyway - that's the argument I'm making in my diss) :)" 
Kwon asks, "what can we do to make it more deliberative?" 
ben says, "I think media criticism offers a return to rhetoric as magic....
some have argued that TV is like a constant chant through which we perform who we 
are as a society." 
ben says, "good question. I don't know the answer :(" 
Kwon says, "but the mass media doesn't really represent our society." 
Nshanyan asks, "does mass media also offer a more democractic playing field?" 
Kwon says, "it's filled with trash, tstereotypes." 
ben says, "Todorov argued that the mass media returns us to the study of rhetoric 
as well. I think the question is probably not how to make it more deliberative 
but how to deliberate through the media of entertainment." 
Nshanyan says, "that's a good one""
ben says, "It doesn't represent us, and yet it does. Around the world people 
think America is what they see on TV." 
Kwon says, "I don't think that it creates a more democratic playing field." 
Kwon says, "the owners aree all conv conservative, upper-class, whites." 
ben says, "well it's not more democratic in terms of ownership -- most mass media 
outlets are owned by under 20 corporations. But in terms of possibility it could, 
if everyone had access to production as well as consumption." 
Kwon says, "that would be ideal"
Nshanyan asks, "I am not shure where I fall on the whole democracy thing - 
but was democracy or fall of it what cause the fall in rhetoric?" 
ben says, "that would call for a revitalization of public TV. and perhaps the 
abolition of the 1934 communications act, which was the big victory for the 
megacorporations that now own the airwaves." 
Kwon asks, "what was the 1934 comm act all about?" 
ben says, "oh..... the study of rhetoric, according to Todorov, was only necessary 
in democratic institutions -- where speech has power. Speech had no power in ancient 
rome, so it didn't matter how eloquent people were. (this is overly simplistic but 
you get the drift.)" 
ben says, "the 1934 comm act established the privatization of the airwaves, supposedly 
in the "public interest". In sum it means the rich get richer and the poor get prison 
as far as thje ownership and transmission of ideas is concerned." 
ben says, "again I'm oversimplifying; you can read about it if you want." 
Nshanyan says, "so, did the gon't own it prior to 1934?"" 
Kwon says, "how important then are public access, that's supposed to be "is"" 
Kwon says, "Republicans are trying to get rid of it." 
Nshanyan asks, "get rid og public access?" 
ben says, "not really. there was no concensus on who owned what before then or what 
the role of govt would be in the communication sphere." 
Thu Jun 27 11:03:27 1996 PDT
Kwon says, "similar to the currect current concern with the internet." 
ben says, "there is a bill called the "white paper" before congress now that will 
turn all copyrights into penalties and costs for reading documents....
meaning looking at a web page will cost you money, which will probably profit the 
20 companies who are the major copyright owners." 
Kwon says, "it takes me forever to read, sorry." 
ben says, "it is scary stuff. Noone will oppose it publicly because it has so many 
vested interests. I wouldn't want to butt heads with Tme-Warner...." 
Kwon says, "it's unfortunate that these companies have become so powerful that people 
are actually afraid to confront them." 
ben says, "for more information see http://www.hotwired.com/wired/4.01/features/whitepaper.html" 
ben asks, "I am going to get cut off here soon.... but shall we meet again here next 
week?" 
Kwon says, "going back to social reality... I was reading Darrell Hamamoto's books, 
(a book), and he (with many other s) made a good argument. The media leaves out all 
t people of color, thus making it seem like they don't exist." 
ben says, "I think we could meet in person if you like; I'd better feel better by then.
Nshanyan says, "by then, well get the hand of it too"" 
Kwon asks, "when should we meet?"
ben says, "K - yes; I agree. There are many specific ways in which people of color 
get left out....more on this when we discuss the rhetric of ethnic identity" 
Nshanyan says, "and what new reading to cover>??"" 
Kwon says, "Id love that."
Kwon asks, "when are we going to cover rhetoric of ethnic identity?" 
Kwon says, "never mind."
Nshanyan asks, "when will we be asigned presentation?" 
Kwon says, "could we meet on Friday? Thurs is 4th of July" 
Nshanyan says, "that means I'l have a hang-over on the 5th"" 
Thu Jun 27 11:13:35 1996 PDT
Kwon says, "I guess we"
Kwon says, ":smiles"
Nshanyan smile
ben reconnects.
ben says, "hey - sorry - I got cut off." 
Nshanyan says, "where was ben?""
Kwon says, "no prob"
Nshanyan says, "I thought you ran to the restroom"" 
Nshanyan smile
ben says, "anyway - we should plan our next meeting over email. 
The next reading is Burke selections. " 
Kwon asks, "How about Wed afternoon.?"
Nshanyan says, "that's on for me""
ben asks, "july 3rd? what aren't you guys patriotic?" 
ben giggles
Kwon asks, "you want to do this overver email or MOO?" 
Kwon exclaims, "heck no!!!"
ben says, "just kidding. that's fine for me." 
Nshanyan says, "so it's Wed.?""
ben says, "we can do it over the MOO again. I will put the log on a web page so you 
can read it over if you like. I will email you the address." 
Kwon asks, "How about Wed at 2 p.m.?"
ben says, "In the meantime, see if you can download a client for the MOO" 
ben says, "that sounds good to me. "
Nshanyan says, "2pm is good""
Nshanyan says, "what is downloaiding a client"" 
Kwon says, "ok, then, it's confirmed."
Nshanyan says, "the screen-sp;liter?""
Kwon says, "G - you got emial on this from Ben. ck it out." 
ben says, "G - a client is a program that makes MOO- conversation easier. 
yes, the screen splitter." 
ben says, "OK.... see you guys soon....feel free to continue chatting here if you want,
though I am turning off the log." 
Nshanyan says, ""
Logging is turned off by ben.
Thu Jun 27 11:18:50 1996 PDT