Thu Jul 11 14:22:24 1996 PDT
Logging is turned on by ben.
********* ben: slide 1 on rhetslide *********
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
| |
| Rhetoric, Dialectic, and the "Postmodern" Turn |
| |
| A Discussion of the Important Contributions |
| of Friedrich Nietzsche |
| to the Study of Rhetoric |
| |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Date: Thursday, 11 July 1996
Time: 1400
Place: DaMOO <http://lrc.csun.edu:8888>
Participants: Ben Attias <http://www.csun.edu/~hfspc002>
Kathy Kwon <hbspc059@dewey.csun.edu>
George Nshanyan george nshanyan <hbspc073@dewey.csun.edu>
********* End *********
ben smiles
Kathy is totally impressed
Nshanyan says, "cool"
ben says, "since the log is on I want to say the URLs again, so you can get
to them from the web...."
ben says, "http://search.shareware.com to search for anything"
ben says, "ftp://ftp.uoknor.edu/mirrors/SimTel/win3/winsock/autown20.zip for
a Windows 3.1 PPP program (900K download so you might want to get it from a
computer at school)"
ben says, "and for a list of programs via the search engine try
http://search.shareware.com/code/engine/Find?cfrom=quick&frame=none&orfile=True&category=MS-Windows3.x&hits=25&search=PPP&logop=and&and="
ben says, "whew.....now that that's outta the way...."
********* ben: slide 2 on rhetslide *********
--------------------------------------------------------------
| This discussion is part of a Seminar on Rhetorical Studies |
| in the Speech Communication Department of California State |
| University taking place over the Summer of 1996. See |
| <http://www.csun.edu/~hfspc002/96/rhet.html> for details. |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Readings:
~~~~~~~~
Friedrich Nietzsche, "On Truth and Falsity in an Extramoral
Sense," trans. Maximilian Mugge in Oscar Levy, ed.,
THE COMPLETE WORKS OF FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE (New York:
Russell and Russell, 1964) 173-192.
Translation (c) 1908.
Peter Heckman, "Nietzsche's Clever Animal: Metaphor in
'Truth and Falsity'," PHILOSOPHY AND RHETORIC 24:4
(1991) 301-321.
********* End *********
ben smiles. "So what do you think so far?
ben says, "not much substance yet but it's pretty...."
Nshanyan asks, "cool-but its not over is it?"
Kathy says, "awsome"
ben says, "no not at all :)"
********* ben: slide 3 on rhetslide *********
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
|| WELCOME!! ||
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Greetings, and thank you for joining us for our discussion on
the exciting topic of Friedrich Nietzsche on Rhetoric! Sit back,
feel free to partake of the various virtual cocktails and soft
drinks served by our computerized bartender. This is an automated
slide show that should help to stimulate a thought-provoking
discussion on the issues that arise in the readings.
The questions raised in the slide show do not have to be answered.
Let's use the slide show as an overall outline for our discussion.
Please feel free to raise issues not covered in the slide show.
When this discussion is finished, the log will be available
on the World Wide Web at the following URL:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
| <http://www.csun.edu/~hfspc002/96/960711.rhetlog.html> |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
********* End *********
Kathy exclaims, "I mean, awersome, I mean awesome!!!!!"
ben gloats
Kathy exclaims, "GO, BEN, GO BEN, GO BEN, GO BEN!!!"
********* ben: slide 4 on rhetslide *********
In "On Truth and Lie," Nietzsche presents a powerful argument
about the rhetorical nature of *truth*. This argument is far-
reaching in its implications; perhaps farther than some of us
are willing to go.
His basic challenge to the philosophical orthodoxy of his time
was quite significant, and with good reason he stands among
Marx and Freud in the "holy trinity of modernity." Nietzsche is
also the philosopher who announced to the world that "God is dead."
Just a point of significance before we begin: if you want to find
out why Nietzsche is so clever or why he writes such great books
you may want to pick up a copy of ECCE HOMO and look at the chapters
entitled "Why I Am so Clever" and "Why I Write Such Great Books."
********* End *********
Kathy is still dancing to the beat.
ben asks, "any questions or comments so far?"
Kathy says, "that's a great title! he's brilliant"
ben chuckles
Nshanyan asks, "did N. wrie, (write ) the two things above.?"
ben says, "oh yes."
Kathy chuckeles back
Nshanyan asks, "he didn't have an ego or anything dod did he?"
Kathy asks, "can you elaborate on "God is dead"?"
ben says, "he's a really funny writer in many ways....Deleuze once wrote
that if you don't laugh out loud while reading N. you aren't "really"
reading him..."
ben says, "No. "
Kathy says, "I guess I must've been readin, then"
ben giggles.
Nshanyan smile
ben says, "I can try.... N. saw belief in God as part of man's hubris
that he talks about in On truth and lie"
ben says, "he sees God as man's creation, but with the Enlightenment
the age of belief was waning."
ben says, "the irony for N is that "man" replaced "god" as the arrogant
myth of his time."
********* ben: slide 5 on rhetslide *********
Now, then, let us begin. Before discussing the specifics of
Nietzsche's argument, I want to call attention to the style
in which this essay is written. From the very first page,
I think you can detect a note of anger and even contempt for
the proud animal (man) who has the arrogance to believe himself
to be the center of the universe.
This kind of contempt for he who is so arrogant no doubt betrays
a certain amount of its own arrogance. Does anyone want to comment
on the nature and function of such arrogance? It might help to
put it in light of Nietszsche's unique position in philosophy, as
both a key figure of "modernity" *and* the philosopher of our entry
into what is now called "postmodernity."
********* End *********
Thu Jul 11 14:33:22 1996 PDT
Nshanyan says, "you mean us? :)"
Kathy asks, "how can we not be haughty?"
ben smiles. I was wondering when you'd notice....
Kathy says, "we came up with symbols"
Kathy exclaims, "we're doing... I hate this computer!!!!"
Kathy says, "I have a point"
ben says, "yes, K, please continue :)"
Kathy is laughinh like an idiot!
ben pours himself a gin on the rocks...
Kathy is still laughinh uncontrollably
Kathy says, "I need another glass of vodka"
ben pours Kathy more vodka.
ben asks, "Want anything to drink George?"
Kathy pours it down
Nshanyan asks, "fruit punch?"
Kathy says, "anyway,..."
Kathy says, "fruit punch? loser"
Kathy says, "just kidding."
ben pours George a fruit punch...
Kathy asks, "what were we talking about?"
ben says, "fruit punch goes well with gin...."
Kathy says, "oh yeah..."
Nshanyan says, "add double gin then"
ben says, "you had a brilliant point to make, K"
Nshanyan exclaims, "it might help me get through this!"
Kathy says, ""much better. you can't talk about N. without it"
ben adds the gin.... (Burke's favorite drink).
ben asks, "should I show the last slide again?"
Nshanyan says, "ya"
********* ben: slide 5 on rhetslide *********
Now, then, let us begin. Before discussing the specifics of
Nietzsche's argument, I want to call attention to the style
in which this essay is written. From the very first page,
I think you can detect a note of anger and even contempt for
the proud animal (man) who has the arrogance to believe himself
to be the center of the universe.
This kind of contempt for he who is so arrogant no doubt betrays
a certain amount of its own arrogance. Does anyone want to comment
on the nature and function of such arrogance? It might help to
put it in light of Nietszsche's unique position in philosophy, as
both a key figure of "modernity" *and* the philosopher of our entry
into what is now called "postmodernity."
********* End *********
Kathy says, "if we didin't show excessive pride , we would be ...
I'm sorry, I can't seem to fininsh my sentence. "
Kathy says, ""
ben says, "that's OK, you can take it one part at a time :)"
Kathy is now throwing the computer out the window.
Nshanyan says, "I dont see how arogance can help make a connection
better modernity and P-modernity ... enlighten me :)"
ben chuckles
ben says, "I think N's arrogance is important to his position at
the dawn of modernity, but *also* at the dawn of postmodernity."
ben says, "both mod and postmod share a certain iconoclasm ...."
Nshanyan says, "wait...I'm getting something.."
Nshanyan says, "it left me...but .."
ben says, "The surrealists, James Joyce, the Futurists, the Dada
artists of the early part of the century; all were considered "high
modernists""
ben says, "and all were certainly influenced to some extent by Nietzsche."
ben says, "Warhol in the sixties is considered "postmodern"; and of course
philosophers like Baudrillard and Foucault ... also indebted to Nietzsche."
Kathy says, "I don't understand how Nietzsche influenced modernists."
ben says, "Well, it depends what you mean by modernists but if you
look at the surrealist artwork or DADAism Nietzsche is everywhere."
Thu Jul 11 14:43:35 1996 PDT
ben says, "high modernism, at least in the art world, involves as
I said a certain iconoclasm; a radical questioning of the Enlightenment."
Nshanyan asks, "so what about his ego?"
ben says, "that is something that is often forgotten in the rush to
canonize "postmodernism"... that modernity itself was a critique of
the Enlightenment, long before Foucault or Warhol or anyone else."
Nshanyan asks, "so this artwork is somow influenced by arrogance as well?"
ben says, "Marx, Freud, and Nietzsche each offered a different strand of
the critique of the Enlightenment."
ben says, "G - yes, I think so. Duchamp put a toilet seat in a museum.
Don't you think such a gesture petrays a touch of arrogance? :)"
Nshanyan says, "ya, especially if it flushed. ;)"
ben says, "The point of much modernist work is a radical questioning
and critique of rationalism."
ben says, "The surrealists were also heavily influenced by Freud."
Kathy says, "I see"
Kathy says, "Heckman makes a good argument about that"
ben says, "What I think all of this (Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, and the
modernists) has in common is in particular a critique of "Man" as he
came to stand as the origin, arbiter, and end of theory and practice
during the Enlightenment."
Kathy says, "acutllayy (I mean, actually, it was de Man."
ben chuckles
ben lights a cigarette
Nshanyan asks, "so the movement from modernism to P-M has put a
different spin on what "man" is to begin with and the arrogance
as his exoression of this paradigm shift....close?"
Kathy says, "al"
ben says, "yes, George. "postmodernism" is actually meaningless in and
of itself; it takes various forms in the work of different writers."
Kathy says, "Heckman acutually disagrees with de Man but I think de Man's
argument is valid...."
ben says, "but yes it has in common with modernism the critique of "man.""
ben asks, "which argument K?"
Kathy says, "he states... Truth and Falsity exscapes from the kind of
error it denounces""
ben asks, "page #?"
Kathy says, "302-303"
ben says, "yes - I don't think H disagrees with de M so much as wants
to supplement his point; to get us beyond what he sees as a paradox."
ben says, "he does this of course by looking at the play of metaphor
in N's essay."
Kathy says, "I meant to say that de Man thinks "
Kathy says, "that n. does not escape from the kind of error it
denounces."
ben says, "yes.... I think that is true."
Kathy says, "yes, he does say wihtout adequate justification."
ben says, "according to de Man, the text tries to inscribe itself
as subject in p[lace of the beheaded author."
Thu Jul 11 14:53:50 1996 PDT
ben says, "Maybe we should slow down a bit and unpack Nietzsche some
more before continuing with heckman."
ben asks, "ready for the next slide?"
Nshanyan says, "ok"
********* ben: slide 6 on rhetslide *********
Let us begin to take apart the central argument of Nietzsche's essay.
First of all, what is meant by "dissimulation" in Nietzsche? On 174
he writes: "The intellect, as a means for the preservation of the
individual, develops its chief power in dissimulation." Is this simply
"negation" a la Hegel?
********* End *********
ben asks, "What is dissimulation?"
Kathy says, "well, dissimulation means the act of disguising under a
false appearanc.e"
Kathy says, "Heckman gives a definition... let me find it"
ben says, "yes, that is right."
ben asks, "so false consciousness then is the chief power of the
intellect?"
Kathy says, "yes"
Nshanyan says, "and this dissimulation is due to man's vanity"
ben says, "no - I think the vanity is the aftereffect of dissimulation"
Kathy says, "I can't find it in Heckman, oh well"
ben says, "Dissimulation is to make something into that which it is not."
Kathy says, "right"
ben says, "The very work of language relies on dissimulation. To call
a tree a tree is to transform it into something it is not in order
to communicate."
Nshanyan asks, "is this because man does not know him/her self?"
ben says, "not only does not but cannot."
Nshanyan says, "...right"
Nshanyan says, "at least that's what he saiys.. that is."
Kathy says, "N. made it easier for me to understand Burke's notion of
the megative."
ben says, "This is very much like Burke in a way.... the play of
identity and difference in KB suggests that we communicate in part
because we cannot completely identify with each other."
ben smiles.
Kathy asks, "was that telepathy?"
ben says, "excellent. It is very Hegelian in a certain way."
Nshanyan says, ""
Nshanyan laugh
Kathy says, "I let go of the animal argument after reading N."
ben says, "virtual telepathy via microchip interference...."the ghost
in the machine". :)"
Kathy says, "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
********* ben: slide 6 on benslide *********
Ross writes that the virus scare "has resulted in a windfall for software
producers, now that users' blithe disregard for makers' copyright privileges
has eroded in the face of the security panic."
How do you feel about the issue of software piracy? Do you think commercial
entities lose profits when you copy a commercial software product?
Most of what is written into the "Software Licensing Agreement" you technically
agree to when you open a commercial software product is illegal and unenforceable.
Nevertheless, do software companies have the right to control how you use the
software you buy from them?
********* End *********
ben says, "shit."
ben says, "ignore that."
********* ben: slide 7 on rhetslide *********
How can we best articulate Nietzsche's view of language? On 177
he says, "What is a word? The expression of a nerve-stimulus in
sounds." On 179: "Every idea originates through equating the
unequal." What is he talking about here?
Is Nietzsche questioning the very basis of perception itself?
Last session, Kathy asked us to distinguish physical reality
from social or symbolic reality. Is Nietzsche suggesting that
that distinction is itself an arrogant human idealism?
********* End *********
Kathy says, "I like d the other slide. :)"
ben says, "hehehe... wrong slide projector"
Kathy says, "yes to all the questions"
Nshanyan says, "I don't agree...mostly no's for me"
ben smiles
Thu Jul 11 15:03:53 1996 PDT
Nshanyan says, "more like no, yes, no"
Kathy says, "Through the use of symbosl, realtities change.
Our perceptions are different."
Kathy says, "it's like the leaf."
ben asks, "no you don't agree N says that or no you don't agree w/him?"
Kathy says, "if i say leaf, you are probably thinking of one kind and
me another."
ben says, "very good - let's talk about the leaf"
Nshanyan says, "I may thinik of a diffeent leaf every time"
ben says, "yes - and "leaf" itself is an abstraction only given meaning
through social interaction"
Kathy asks, "didn't you say you disagreed me with me, G?"
Nshanyan says, "not on this leaf point"
Nshanyan asks, "can I scroll up to see what had been written?"
Kathy says, "darn, I thought mwe might have a good fight"
ben says, "yes, if you like"
Nshanyan says, "how"
Kathy says, "I can't scrooll up"
ben says, "if you want to see a slide again tell me"
Nshanyan says, "no not a slide...somethink that K had said"
ben says, "oh - it depends on your software; some programs on windows
don't allow scrolling."
Nshanyan says, "that's probable mine - i cant cut and past either"
Kathy says, "let's go back to waht you asked, b"
Nshanyan says, "but put the slide back up ... it might help me remember"
Kathy says, "every idea originates through equating the unequal."
********* ben: slide 7 on rhetslide *********
How can we best articulate Nietzsche's view of language? On 177
he says, "What is a word? The expression of a nerve-stimulus in
sounds." On 179: "Every idea originates through equating the
unequal." What is he talking about here?
Is Nietzsche questioning the very basis of perception itself?
Last session, Kathy asked us to distinguish physical reality
from social or symbolic reality. Is Nietzsche suggesting that
that distinction is itself an arrogant human idealism?
********* End *********
Kathy says, "when N. says equating the unequal..."
ben says, "yes"
Kathy says, "we are forgetting all the individual and differentinating
qualities of the "original."
Kathy says, "itls it's like generalizing."
Nshanyan asks, "do you mean (Ben) that discussion in generall is an
arrogant human idealism anor a discussion about something specific?"
ben says, "not discussion but the use of language....it is only arrogant
insofar as idealism is arrogant; we pretend to be what we are not."
Nshanyan says, "sorry..I read distinction as discussion..I know I'n
sidisleksik (how ever you spell it0 but even this was a stretch"
Kathy asks, "did you get what I meant when I said generalizing?"
ben pours George more gin
Kathy says, "give him the whole bottle"
Kathy says, ":)"
Kathy smiles
Nshanyan 0":)
Thu Jul 11 15:13:53 1996 PDT
ben says, "yes, Kathy - it's again like the leaf. we create a category
to put things in."
Nshanyan says, ":)"
Kathy asks, "wehy do we have to acknowledge our arrogance?"
ben says, "the arrogance isn't as important as the act of dissimulation"
Kathy says, "I answered my own question. thanks "
********* ben: slide 8 on rhetslide *********
We come to his definition of "truth":
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| in short a sum of human relations which became poetically |
| and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed, adorned, and |
| after long usage seem to a nation fixed, canonic, and binding; |
| truths are illusions of which one has forgotten that they are |
| illusions; worn-out metaphors which have become powerless to |
| affect the senses; coins which have their obverse effaced and |
| now are no longer of account as coins but merely as metal. |
| (p. 180) |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The notion of the "dead metaphor" or more precisely the reified
social construct should be familiar to us after our discussion of
Burke's notion of the symbol-misusing animal. Yet Nietzsche seems
to be suggesting that every use of language (and truth itself,
whatever it be) is already a "misuse of symbols" in the Burkean
sense. What are the implications of this?
********* End *********
Kathy says, "people often forget that what they think if is the
"truth" really isn't."
Nshanyan has disconnected.
ben says, "yes.... that truth is a product of human labor and intention
rather than something given from above."
ben asks, "where did G go?"
Kathy says, "what's beneficial to one is not to another."
ben says, "very definitely."
Kathy says, "maybe he fortgot to turn off call waiting."
Kathy says, "it interrupst your "
Kathy asks, "what?"
Kathy says, "never mind."
A satellite from the 'Keep space clean' department picks up Nshanyan
to get it back to the right orbit.
ben chuckles
Kathy exclaims, "heheheheheheheh!"
Kathy says, "whenever we are using symbols it is misuse..."
Kathy says, "because of dissimulation"
Nshanyan teleports in.
Kathy says, "welcome"
Nshanyan says, "I got cut off.."
Kathy fell off the chair for laughing so hard
ben says, "exactly.... in a sense if we aren't misusing symbols we
aren't really using them."
Kathy says, "yeap"
Nshanyan says, "f"
Kathy says, "deep"
Kathy says, "watch your language."
Nshanyan says, "damn it..I missed some good sh__"
Kathy laughs
Nshanyan asks, "can you post the last slide?"
ben says, "that's OK; it will be on the web...."
********* ben: slide 8 on rhetslide *********
We come to his definition of "truth":
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| in short a sum of human relations which became poetically |
| and rhetorically intensified, metamorphosed, adorned, and |
| after long usage seem to a nation fixed, canonic, and binding; |
| truths are illusions of which one has forgotten that they are |
| illusions; worn-out metaphors which have become powerless to |
| affect the senses; coins which have their obverse effaced and |
| now are no longer of account as coins but merely as metal. |
| (p. 180) |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The notion of the "dead metaphor" or more precisely the reified
social construct should be familiar to us after our discussion of
Burke's notion of the symbol-misusing animal. Yet Nietzsche seems
to be suggesting that every use of language (and truth itself,
whatever it be) is already a "misuse of symbols" in the Burkean
sense. What are the implications of this?
********* End *********
Nshanyan asks, "do you see Burke and N. and contradicting each po
other on this point , or saying the same thing in different ways?"
Nshanyan says, "sorry..i missed your conversation"
ben says, "I think their points are similar. And N was no doubt
an influence on KB."
Kathy asks, "hello?"
ben says, "hi :)"
Kathy says, "let's move on"
Nshanyan says, "n. seems like the next logical step folowing B."
Thu Jul 11 15:23:55 1996 PDT
Nshanyan says, "takeing it to the next level"
********* ben: slide 9 on benslide *********
Are there any extrapolations to be made between the discussion of computer
hacking and privacy and the debate over pornography on the internet?
Do you feel that the attack on "free speech" in cyberspace should also be seen
as an attack on privacy rights? Do we have the right to view any information
we want, no matter how "obscene" or potentially dangerous?
********* End *********
ben exclaims, "shit!"
********* ben: slide 9 on rhetslide *********
What are the uses of Nietzsche's position in Rhetorical Theory?
How does Nietzsche give us a better (or worse) understanding of rhetoric
and the power of symbols? Does Nietzsche's perspective allow for
the kind of social change through the use of symbols that we have
been discussing?
********* End *********
Kathy says, "I like this"
Kathy exclaims, "the other one's are more fun!"
Kathy frowns
ben says, "heh....it was for another class."
Nshanyan says, "to your last Q..."
Kathy exclaims, "definitely!"
Nshanyan says, "I think it might.."
ben asks, "how so G?"
Kathy says, "it makes us question what is we consider to be "right""
Nshanyan says, "if we (man wo/man) use symobls as we do ..(the way
that we do) we could learn to use them differently and realize that
they have a certin poer power and control over us.."
ben says, "yes, excellent. this is very much Burke's perspective
on using symbols."
Kathy says, "right"
Nshanyan says, "but..."
ben says, "For N though I don't think it is so much a matter of
using them correctly as it is of using them to remake our world."
ben asks, "yes G?"
Kathy says, "that's Burke's argument"
Kathy says, "too"
Nshanyan asks, "isn't there some kind of never ending loop of symols
using us and we using symbold to even know what is the TRUTH?"
ben says, "I think that for N perception itself prevents us from
seeing truth. We are already using metaphors evern before we enter
into language."
Kathy says, "well, wehn we are preoccupied with the TRUTYH, we
focus on binary opposition of right and wrong..."
Kathy says, "we need to understand that there are "maybes" in
the our reality."
ben says, "yes -- that is certainly where rhetoric comes in
most decisively."
ben says, "according to Aristotle, rhetoric was necessary when
we cannot determine truth or falsity but must deal in probabilities."
Nshanyan says, "that's deep..somewhat. :)"
********* ben: slide 10 on rhetslide *********
Ben's perspective on all this (this is straight outta my dissertation
so not too much laughter):
"Truth," I think, should be read not simply as a discursive construction
repeated until it is forgotten that that is what it is. More to the point,
the reification of truth does not foreclose its nature as a product of
human labor -- that labor is continuous and active.
And, most importantly, it is artistic labor: an aesthetic expression of
subjectivity, both individual and sociocultural. Nietzsche implied as much
when he wrote of the "forgetting" implicit in the modern idea of truth:
"Only by forgetting that the primitive world of metaphors, only by the
congelation and coagulation of an original mass of similes and percepts
pouring forth as a fiery liquid of the primal faculty of human fancy,
only by the invincible faith, that this sun, this window, this table
is a truth in itself: in short only by the fact that man forgets himself
as subject, and what is more an artistically creating subject: only by
this does he live with some repose, safety and consequence. If he were
able to get out of the prison walls of this faith, even for an instant
only, his 'self-consciousness' would be destroyed at once" (184).
********* End *********
Nshanyan says, "your absolutely right Ben"
Nshanyan says, ":)"
ben smiles. "Of course I am"
Kathy says, """teras"
Kathy exclaims, "teacher's pet!"
ben laughs.
Thu Jul 11 15:33:55 1996 PDT
Kathy says, "that's great ben."
Kathy says, "we can relate this again to m the power of media"
Kathy says, "if it's repeated often enough, we tend to believe it."
Kathy says, "it's time we start forgetting. Yeah, lets'
change the world."
Kathy says, "heheheheheheh"
ben says, "yes; and my point above is that we are engaging in
aesthetic labor -- creativity -- when we make meaning."
Kathy fo
ben says, "the goal for N is not so much forgetting as it is *unforgetting*"
Kathy says, "right"
ben says, "And if you remember your ancient Greek, the literal
meaning of "aleitheia" (truth) is actually un-forgetting."
Kathy says, "the reason we're in this mess is because we have foroetten."
Kathy says, "cool"
Nshanyan exclaims, "funky!"
ben says, "Well, its not entirely a mess.... the forgetfulness
is also enabling. is the only way we *can* use language."
Nshanyan says, "..so lets not forget. :)"
Kathy exclaims, "oh, this is great... I can use this in my thesis!!!"
Kathy says, "major contriadictions. I love it."
ben smiles
********* ben: slide 1 on rhetslide1 *********
What is interesting in this passage is that Nietzsche the philologist
essentially deploys, as against reified truth, the ancient project of
truth as unforgetting (aleitheia). If such unforgetting were to occur,
according to Nietzsche, the edifice of "self-consciousness" from which
man creates his world would tremble and shake. Additionally, this
highlights that the forgetting which is the crucial final step in the
production of truth in the modern sense functions as an enabling mechanism
for human sociality even as it is a distorted (if flattering) mirror of
human subjectivity. Thus, while there is no escaping such forgetfulness
in human society, social change depends upon strategic and contingent
instances of such unforgetting. The project of unforgetting is primarily
concerned with unforgetting the artistic invention of subjectivity --
the production of truth involves both rhetorical invention and aesthetic
performance.
********* End *********
Kathy applaudes
ben smiles
ben asks, "does it all make sense now?"
Kathy says, "yes"
Nshanyan says, "excuse me..I've mad too much gin..I'll be right back"
Kathy exclaims, "ben, I think he's lost it!"
Kathy smiles
ben smiles
Kathy asks, "how much more do we have?"
Kathy says, "you spent a lot of time doing this."
ben says, "I think a couple more slides."
Kathy exclaims, "thanks!!!!"
********* ben: slide 2 on rhetslide1 *********
What of the Peter Heckman essay? I had you read this because I think
it is a classic example of what is called a "close textual analysis" of
Nietzsche's text. It is also a great example of deconstructive reading.
Note how painstakeingly careful Heckman is to get Nietzsche exactly right.
Yet, in following Nietzsche closely to where he heads, something escapes,
opening up Nietzsche's text to Heckman's explosive reading.
What do you think of this deconstructive performance? How does Heckman's
text illuminate the arguments of Nietzsche?
********* End *********
Kathy says, "I didn't quite see it as Illuminating."
Kathy says, "I read it with sarcasm, maybe that's why"
ben asks, "how so?"
Kathy says, "not necessarily sarcasm but his tone was very pompous"
ben smiles. Kinda like Nietzsche's, eh?
Nshanyan says, "hi -I'm back... yes i saw it as illuminating in a sence"
Kathy says, "yeah"
Kathy says, "let's take for ex..."
Thu Jul 11 15:44:12 1996 PDT
Kathy says, "on pg 302..."
Kathy says, "Heckman says, "just as remarkable is the forthright use
of an omniscient6 authorial voice in a texxt which argues for the
perspectival and limited charactedr of all knowledge""
ben asks, "yes - don't you see this in N?"
Kathy exclaims, "definitely!!!"
ben says, "I think that is the essential aporia or paradox of the text"
Kathy says, "I agree"
Kathy says, "Heckman tears N. apart"
Kathy says, "I was very impressed with all the questions he posed."
ben says, "well, yes and no....I think he likes N's aporia even as
he critiques it."
Nshanyan says, ""at first that's ewhat I thought...that it wa done
arrogantly..but it was wvery helpfull"
Kathy says, "I loved his arguments of "Nature""
ben says, "I think the kind of reading he offers is a great way to
read a text, paying very close attention to the language."
ben says, "shall we wrap up? I think the last slide is next."
ben says, ""
Kathy says, "yes, however, going back to your initial question..."
ben asks, "yes?"
Nshanyan asks, "is that what deconstruction is?...applying very close
attention to the use of language?"
Kathy says, "in paying close attention to the language, in
he illuminates N."
ben says, "well, that is certainly an integral part of it"
Nshanyan says, "but that is not all that it is....Il' save it for
another conversation...;)"
ben says, "yes - when we get to derrida..."
Nshanyan says, "i was trying to apply it to my thesis"
ben smiles. excellent!
Kathy has disconnected.
ben asks, "now where did Kathy go?"
Nshanyan says, "I think the reason that i disconnected earlier was
that I got a phone call..maybe her too"
A satellite from the 'Keep space clean' department picks up Kathy
to get her back to the right orbit.
Nshanyan says, "what is this?.."
Nshanyan asks, "is that what got me back?"
ben chuckles. The moo does that whenever anyone leaves.
Kathy teleports in.
Kathy says, "sorry"
Nshanyan says, "shit..i was get'n scared there for a minute"
Kathy says, "I got disconnected."
ben says, "you should dial *70 to turn off callwaiting"
Kathy says, "I did"
ben says, "oh."
ben says, "well, here we go..."
Kathy says, "if someone lets it ring for a long, long time,
it disconnects."
********* ben: slide 2 on rhetslide1 *********
What of the Peter Heckman essay? I had you read this because I think
it is a classic example of what is called a "close textual analysis" of
Nietzsche's text. It is also a great example of deconstructive reading.
Note how painstakeingly careful Heckman is to get Nietzsche exactly right.
Yet, in following Nietzsche closely to where he heads, something escapes,
opening up Nietzsche's text to Heckman's explosive reading.
What do you think of this deconstructive performance? How does Heckman's
text illuminate the arguments of Nietzsche?
********* End *********
Nshanyan says, "I don't ah have call waiting but i still got dissconnected"
ben says, "oops. guess we already did that one"
********* ben: slide 3 on rhetslide1 *********
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| The log of this discussion will be |
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********* End *********
ben says, "oh, that is the last one."
Kathy says, "hehehehehe"
Nshanyan says, "THIS WAS REALLY EXCELLENT BEN.."
Kathy gives a standing ovation
Thu Jul 11 15:54:25 1996 PDT
ben smiles
ben says, "thank you"
Kathy exclaims, "encore!"
ben says, "hehehehe"
Nshanyan says, "ya, lets do it all over again..;)"
Kathy says, "I'm game"
ben says, "it's already after 4...."
Kathy exclaims, "we were just kidding!"
Nshanyan asks, "what's for next week?"
ben says, "hehehe."
ben says, "Gramsci "
Nshanyan says, ":)"
ben asks, "should we meet here or in person next week?"
Nshanyan exclaims, "i don't have gramsci!"
Kathy says, "let'smeet in person"
Kathy says, "I gave you a copy"
ben says, "you should; last time we met in person you copied it"
Kathy says, "remember the prison notebooks/"
Nshanyan says, "then i'll look for it ..I'll get back if i can't find it"
ben asks, "OK - what time next week?"
Nshanyan asks, "same?"
ben asks, "thurs at 2 again?"
Kathy says, "fine."
Nshanyan exclaims, "I'll bring the gin!"
ben laughs.
Nshanyan asks, "in person ?"
Kathy says, "Please... I need to see some real faces."
Kathy says, "we can do lunch. "
ben says, "yes; I think that's a great idea."
Nshanyan says, "hay...that could work."
ben asks, "want to meet somewhere with lunch?"
Nshanyan asks, "Chilli's?"
Kathy says, "we could raid your place."
Kathy says, "G - let's go ck out ben's place."
Kathy says, "if he doesn't mind."
ben smiles
ben says, "I don't mind at all; less effort for me to get here :)"
Kathy says, "hehe"
ben says, "it might be messy"
Kathy says, "the better"
Nshanyan exclaims, "then I'll bring something other than gin!"
ben says, "and I don't have a lotta furniture but we can make do"
Kathy says, "we could order pizza"
ben says, "great idea"
Kathy asks, "hello?"
ben says, "hi"
Nshanyan exclaims, "ok, so it's set then!"
Kathy asks, "since we're meeting for lunch,k should we meet
earlier than t 2?"
ben asks, "OK; want to meet at 12 or 1?"
Kathy says, "12 d sounds good"
Nshanyan says, "1"
ben asks, "also do you know where I live?"
Kathy says, ":)"
Logging is turned off by ben.
Thu Jul 11 16:02:38 1996 PDT
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